In this episode with Tactic co-founder and CEO Rudy Lai, we learn the importance of truly understanding the problems and needs of your customers and how to balance the volume of customer input with the speed of innovation and execution. 

Episode Links

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Tactic Website

Episode Transcript

Matthew Todd 

My name is Matthew Todd, and welcome to Inside the scale up. This is the podcast for founders, executives and tech, looking to make an impact and learn from their peers within the tech business. We lift the lid on tech businesses, interview leaders and following their journey from startup to scale up and beyond covering everything from developing product market fit, funding and fundraising models to value proposition structure and growth marketing.

We learn from that journey so that you can understand how they really work, the failures, the successes, the lessons along the way, so that you can take their learnings and apply them within your own startup or scale up and join the ever growing list of high growth UK SAS businesses. Hey, you welcome back to the podcast really pleased to be joined this morning by Rudy Lai, Co-Founder of Tactic. Great to have you here.

Rudy Lai 

Thanks for having me, Matt. Good to be on the show.

Matthew Todd 

No worries. So, let’s kick things off if we can by giving people a bit of background about yourself, what did things look like for you before Tactic?

Rudy Lai 

Yeah, for sure. So before Tactic, I guess from the from the very start, I graduate graduated, as a computer scientist from Imperial College London, I was attracted to the pace and the pressure of financial markets. So I joined Morgan Stanley in their algorithmic trading business. My role there was really around leveraging data science to figure out go to market and revenue.

So mainly, we had a lot of customers, not a lot of salespeople, how do you kind of allocate resources correctly, that’s really the main problem I solved over there, spent five years in financial services, and really, at the end, got the chance to manage the CCO revenue number for one of the European trading desks. And as you can imagine, big company life, right? Very corporate, lots of legal work, lots of compliance work, not a lot of actual data science.

So I thought, well, I was young, I can take some risks. Let me go try this new startup thing. Because I believe, at the time, my friend just so to start off to Twitter, and oh my god, I could do this too. Yeah. Hindsight is 2020.

So I left the bank. And I basically gonna plunge myself into the world of startups joined a few incubators, join a few of my friends startups, really just kind of to see how it looks like. And one of the challenges that I had was translating what I know about go to market from a big brand and a big company, to a very small company where you don’t have as many resources you’re not as data driven, very, everything is very scrappy. And that’s really where the idea for Tactic came to be. So that’s, uh, that’s how that’s how the whole company ties in with my experience prior

Matthew Todd 

makes a lot of sense to them, I’m sure get into some of those go to market lessons learned and how they did and didn’t apply to those startups. But so I guess there with that startup experience, what was the trigger, then to lead you to a, you know, try and set something up for yourself, but then also think that yeah, I’ve got something here that could be viable.

Rudy Lai 

The million-dollar question. I think, I always tell people that. If you have to ask whether this is the right thing for you and the right time to take the plunge, then it’s not the right thing. Okay, so I’d love to say like, there’s this one concrete piece of evidence that told me all the Tactic is the thing to do. And actually, when we first started Tactic, the idea was completely adjacent. There was a completely different it’s not like we’re selling farming SaaS.

It was doing the same domain solving a very similar problem. But like, at the start, it’s not like it’s immediately apparent to you that is the right idea. Yeah, I think certain people see it as a checkbox exercise. And I think you can certainly do that. I’ve also seen very successful founders come up with a plan. So they would come in and say, Look, this is my strategy. This is my plan does or why it makes sense as well as a billion dollar company. Yeah, let’s give it a try.

I think for my experience, and I guess, my own and my jet Jack’s experience, it’s, there’s this allure of the idea and I think the allure came from early on. There were there was a lot of customer excitement. We couldn’t not get in the door with a lot of customers to talk about idea. There was no demo. There was no like screenshots or anything He was merely an idea. And the fact that we’re researching this idea generated enough excitement that we’re like, oh, this is this is interesting.

And, of course, I think we were in a luxury luxurious position to just sit there and think about this. And there wasn’t like a huge kind of pressure on either of us to like, get something going. So, it was very academic at the start, like it was just, you know, 4050 sales leaders wanted to talk to us about this problem, and chase it and see what happens.

Matthew Todd 

What was it about what was the idea? What was it about that idea, then that got them engaged and excited to talk to you?

Rudy Lai 

So, at the very start, what we really focused on is actually an idea that’s very topical right now. is, how do you use AI to generate sales emails? This is an idea that’s as old as time like, of course, when I thought about our thought, Oh, my God, I’m so smart. But like, right now, you can just see the market chatter.

Numerous people have tried and failed. But actually, the idea for Tactic came to us when we examined Why did numerous people try and fail. Um, so it’s not that the idea itself is bad. It’s, the idea is good, people are solving it in the wrong direction.

Matthew Todd 

So, the problem is valid.

Rudy Lai 

The problem is valid. It’s just the solution was wrong? Yeah. Um, so I think us approaching marketing and sales leaders asking them about like, Hey, we’re not, we don’t have a solution.

But this is this is painful, like, people writing copy is painful, like, how do you solve it now? And we just saw, like, maybe the one level deeper market that may be other founders didn’t kind of have a chance to see. And that’s where the real Tactic came to be.

Matthew Todd 

I see. So, in those conversations, then that that deeper level of understanding, what did that lead you to try and stand up then as that? That early, you know, initial version of the product?

Rudy Lai 

Yeah, so we, the Insight was, we had like, kind of two big insights in the, in the, in the journey of our startup. So, the first insight was writing the email is not hard. Finding the talking points to write the email. That’s the hard part. Yeah. Right. So, what that means it’s, you can write a perfectly convincing email with like, little inputs to pitch any service. Right, that yeah, that is completely possible right now of GPT. It was very possible back then with the technology existing in 2019 2020. Yeah, um, but what you feed into the model is still the biggest problem, right? So, whether you’re GPT.

Now, whether it’s more natural language generation, a version before, we all know here that the prompt makes all the difference. You put in, garbage comes out, you put in Great talking points, great talking points come out. So our first realization was like, writing isn’t the problem. The research is the problem. Sure. So, we had quite a bit of a few prototypes. And we’re like, Oh, great. Like, actually, we can solve research. And then like, we would just like have a box for people to send some emails on. And I think maybe in 15, customer interviews or something, people were like, Rudy, why are you solving this email box thing, just solve the research is a big enough problem.

So we literally overnight, cut half the idea of and, and we’re like, Hey, hang on like this, this could be great. So, we started building in this direction. And then the second insight came out, which is, if you have this data, if you can do research like this, then you’re not replacing a salesperson, you’re replacing an analyst. Like you’re replacing the people you would source let’s say onshore offshore to do data work for you.

You’re replacing manual data processes in business teams. You’re replacing supplier research and vendor research in legal compliance and procurement teams. So anytime you really like hire an intern, you really hired a data analyst. You hire a researchers to help you compile data. That’s what Tactic is trying to replace. So, once we have that realization, we’re like, well, actually great. We can do emails and whatever. But you can also pump the same research for a cold call pump the same research for a demand generation campaign, you can use the same research for Account Based Marketing. And then nowadays, like with flooring, new things around, like let’s say, integrating with net suites, to do to enrich their ERP systems. All this is because actually, there’s a huge amount of customized data needs across the company that’s currently filled by people doing manual data work as well, this kind of realization, that’s which, what really kicked Tactic into the limelight.

Matthew Todd 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I can see how it is taking the problem and understanding it at a deeper level. And it’s almost like an iteration of technologies and integration that we’re seeing, and I’m seeing a lot of other SaaS startups follow a similar pattern, like to start with you had quite basic CRM, and then you had, you know, CRMs, that are more geared towards different types of marketers and marketing. And now you know, what you’re talking about is kind of a next iteration beyond that.

So I think it’s super interesting to see how you pursues the problem to arrive at something, which is a far better solution than the way you started. So yeah, I guess with that realization, then how long did it take you to get an initial product in the hands of customers started getting some real usage, real feedback and see how viable it was?

Rudy Lai 

Oh, this is why I’m super proud about this. We started making money with other products. So, it was so basically, like, we, like everybody else started building a product. It was beautiful, like great dashboards, amazing colors, gradients, you name it. And nobody bought it. So after four months of doing this microphone, and I said, Okay, let’s start building. Let’s go talk to customers, and say, Will you buy something, and until somebody puts down money, we’re not going to build anything else yet. So, it took us maybe six months. And I like to say I think it’s about for 400. But maybe in reality is like 300 customer interviews later, we found a first customer.

It’s one of my friends who worked in a SaaS company back then. And he was like, Oh, this is great. Like, when can you deliver it to me? And we’re like, we haven’t built it yet. But he was like, Hey, how about we kind of hack it a bit, and you just give me the outputs on a spreadsheet, and I’ll pay you money for that. I was like, okay, like, let’s, let’s generate a spreadsheet. So we were like, Okay, well, this is easy. Let’s, let’s generate a spreadsheet, manually, maybe touch it up and insert it. So we charge 200 pounds for that first spreadsheet.

That was April 2 2020. And then April 15, my friend came back and said, Hey, can I pay you more money for another spreadsheet with different parameters? And we’re like, okay, that’s, that’s cool. Let’s be, let’s change the way we’re generating this and give you a new spreadsheet. And so this went on and on and like, I believe something like end of May five of his teammates was using it. June, like 30 people at the company was using it, it was all just spreadsheets is ridiculous. Like they’re selling spreadsheets at 200 pounds per sheets. And people had real engagement with these spreadsheets. And we had, we had like, fancy icons and like coloring and everything. And it was just, we had maybe five customers on this spreadsheet thing. Before, people were like, guys, like we love this, but you how are you going to scale this? Like you can’t do spreadsheets forever. So, remember, this day very clearly, we went in, we had our first or serious customer where it’s not like we have relationships with 30 people. It’s like what relationship I have with a VP who is still a great mentor of mine as of today.

He said, Look, really, I want to roll this out to 25 on my team, I want to pay you a big chunk of money. And what you need to do is like, make sure that looks good, right? Like the people on the ground right now the pioneers, they’re okay with a spreadsheet, but you need to you need the GUI, right? Um, so I think we got this message October 15 or something. And myself, Jack and one of our engineers first engineer, Sparrow, I think in in the space of three weeks, we shipped the first version of Tactic and it was main x so like Maybe I don’t think I slept for the two weeks. And it was just crazy amounts of scrappy product building. And it really helps because like, this is probably the 40th, like web app I’ve made and Sparrow has made even more and Jack has, has made a huge amount of data pipelines before.

So it was like very quick, but it was still quite the push, because I believe we turned on logins, the minute before the launch meeting, while he was that close, we launched and it was great. Like, we had a new UI and worked and like you press a button and like, stuff appeared, and it was just amazing. And so that then kind of brought us today to do one and this sort of like pilot was going on. And it was from then till today, it was just nonstop trying to like put a product in front of a customer that’s, um, that has high expectations and is constantly telling us what to do. And that has kind of continued ever since.

Matthew Todd 

No, I think that’s awesome. I think that’s such a good tactic, no pun intended to apply to launching an initial product the right way with market viability is, like so many founders in their head have got like a vision of what the product should look like. And I think they want to build it and polish it and build it and polish it until they can give it to a customer and then find that actually, their assumptions are wrong. And no one wants to pay for that.

So, I think the approach you’ve taken of, solve the problem in a kind of a low fi, way to start with, but provide enough value by solving the problem, you know, that’s the ultimate test that there is a problem people will pay to solve, right. And then, as you say, when you get to that point where you can’t scale them, build the right products with a whole lot more knowledge and really engage people already that are gonna give you that feedback, I think that’s such a good way to build a solid foundation for anyone trying to launch a SaaS platform like yours, I think that’s really, really kind of well, like well thought out well executed in terms of that initial product strategy.

So I guess they’re kind of beyond that, then once you’ve made that shift from spreadsheets to kind of the real SaaS platform that quick builds, what was the focus then was it you know, keeping that core bunch of users keep iterating? On the products to enhance their experience? Or, you know, what point did you try and take that to the wider market yourself?

Rudy Lai 

When, in 2020, and 2021? It wasn’t even do we didn’t have a moment to like, think about strategy, because one person, I remember this, in that in that VP scenario, right? He wrote it out to 25 people, I believe, at the end of the, like, when we when they signed a bigger, bigger commercial agreement with us. It was like 50 people in their organization using it without us pushing it.

So it was just like an extreme amount of pool. And so every time we saw a new user log in, we called them and we’re like, hey, you know, welcome to Tactic. What are you looking to solve? Like, this is what we’re trying to solve? Like, how are you seeing the problem? And it’s just, and then like these people that refer us to their friends. And so, it was just, we had four people trying to satisfy, like, 120 people. Like, if you imagine in a corporate, you had a dev team of four people, and one of them or like, two of them is like half of project manager, and you have 120 users to try to satisfy. It’s just an incredibly stressful situation.

So, we didn’t really think about like new business or anything new business came to us, New Years. Last. People left these companies, and then they brought us to the new companies. And it was just an uncontrolled run away, so to say. And I think the problem there was more, to a certain degree at some point. We need to learn how to pick what to build and not just build everything. Yes. At the start. Jack, myself and the team, we are all sort of like TEDx engineers.

And we can we could actually build anything you asked us like anything you asked us in the morning will be shipped the next morning. Um, but even there’s like a limit to how fast we can go. And also, as the product grew, you can’t just change things as fast. So then the problem became, what do we build and not like, Who do we build it for? And so we were in a kind of luxurious position from 2020 to 2021.

Matthew Todd 

And how did you two prioritized. And given what you described about the products, different types of users within a company, I imagine there were a lot of features that you had people asking for and could have chosen to build different directions you could have gone down. So how did you keep any kind of focus to the products to stop things being spread too thinly?

Rudy Lai 

I have a fairly stubborn view on this. So I think it’s really as two things right. Number one is, you need enough inputs to know how to prioritize, right, it’s very hard to prioritize. We’ve talked to three users, and they all say different things. Yeah. But if you’re talking to 30 users, you might start seeing patterns. So that’s number one. So you need numbers.

Number two is you need to think and ask deeply about the problems. So I’ll give you a very real example, we had a bunch of users who sold ecommerce platforms. And they came to us and they were like, Hey, can Tactic find out what percentage of a retailer’s revenue is online? So if you’re like selling it to a Kia, they may have ever made billions they make? How much of that comes from a Right? So, if you take this as face value, you’re like, Well, this is impossible, right? Maybe even a Kia doesn’t know how much of their revenue comes And, and then, when we really asked what we what they said was the reason why they wanted this number was they wanted to proxy, how big could a deal be if they close the deal of a queue? Right? Like, it’s no brainer to close a deal with a key as a giant deal. But between a Kia and at UNM, for example, you go off the first. So, we’re okay. So the problem you want to solve is actually how big the company how much money the company can give you and not really whether they have on my revenue? Or how much on my revenue?

So then we’re like, Okay, so who else has this problem? And then on a very different corner of, of the of the of the market? Somebody was like, Hey, can you show us how many payment manager somebody has? Like, if you’d like to work with Sports Direct, like how many payment managers do not have? And we’re like, what, why do you want to find this out? And then oh, yeah, you know, want to see how big can the deal be? Or oh, that’s actually the same problem as the Econ guys.

So then like, you’re like, oh, what big one was two problems and not one problem. So you just have that one problem you satisfy to users? Yeah. And, and so the second most important thing is to really dig deep and ask, what are you trying to do? Like, why is this important to you? And if you just said something you’d like, well, what, why is that important. And until you get to like, really the root of the problem, we can very clearly say, users trying to do this, they can’t, because the credit Electus only solve it in a certain way.

And then lastly, it’s really about productivity. And like, no startup can survive, if you don’t get to read quickly, right? Like you can talk about focus and iteration and strategy all you like, ultimately, it’s about building a team with the capability to move fast, and building a system with the capability to move fast.

So a lot of times, and then ourselves included, that the most challenging thing is to decide, do you build or buy? And this sounds extremely difficult for it. But we have had situations where we have rebuilt some open-source projects without knowing it. And that’s because we could have just used the open-source project.

I also remember distinctly that when my co-founder arrived, and I already had like a bit of code working, we iterated like maybe five times as fast by him saying, Why are using this open source framework is way too big, just kill it. And it will do something simple, right?

So, striking this balance is incredibly difficult. But between increasing the inputs you’re exposed to asking deeply about why the problem is what it is, yeah. And in assembling a capability, and organization to iterate quickly, all three of those things enable you to execute at the right level. And then participation should be fairly clear to you. And that’s how it works at Tactic.

Matthew Todd 

No, fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. I love what you’re saying about the combination of that research and analytical approach and making sure you’ve got the right number of inputs but then digging deep into what they’re really trying to solve for.

So that you have that data coming in but then, on the other Do you have that ability to implement at speed and I think so many people confuse the ability to implement at speeds with, like, in the name of agile or whatever it might be, like a propensity to make very quick decisions, which can often be uninformed decisions. But that’s not what you’re talking about what you’re talking about is the right approach of having that right quality of input and data coming in. And then once you have determined what the right thing to build is, then building that quickly, not rushing into build anything just because you can build something.

So, I think that’s a really, really good and valuable insight that I hope people listening to this, you know, are able to take away a free Tactic. So I guess the obvious question for me that follows on from that, though, is how do you get those inputs?

Because this is something I see a lot of founders do, they might think they’re doing this, but in reality, they’ve actually got a low volume of information and low quality information coming in, and you know, what, what does that actually look like to you? How do you do make sure you get that data?

Rudy Lai 

This is, I often get asked this, we had the, again, the luxury and the privilege of a giant network. And I actually think I really agree with Paul Graham on this, where Paul says, if the founders don’t have access to the users at volume, you’re not the right founder for this idea. Yeah, right. Like, I can’t go start a beauty startup, right. I know nobody in beauty, right? I can’t go start a fashion startup; I don’t know. But in fashion, I don’t know anybody who is like, really fashionable, you know, especially not a scale.

Whereas we were able to do like four or five really meaningful user interviews a week when we were doing user interviews, and it was just like intros and, and context we had, and people we know, not to mention that I worked there for like, five, six years, and then have like, seen it deeply. For 60 years myself, that I think is the context I need to share. Because what I’m going to say next is predicated on the fact that you have an unlimited supply of people to talk to. But what we did was, I don’t say we did this enough, even as we did it our way was to talk to like a core audience 80% of the time, and then talk to some random people 20% of the time.

So our core audience is companies between 200 and 1000 people right now. They sell either b2b services, or b2b software. But we’ll go talk to like a medical device kind of customer. And we’re like, hey, you know, what do you need? We have nothing to sell, because we don’t understand you. But we’d love to understand you. These are the problems that we solve for other people, like, does this translate? How do you talk about this? How do you kind of how would you solve this right now? Yeah, we talked to people who are, are like, we literally talked to IKEA, we’re like, Hey, can you use this? And the CIO was like, Yeah, you know, these are the areas where like, you can probably use this, but you need this, you need this, you need this. So, we didn’t know right? I was like, great. Okay, yeah. But then what you then find, it’s like, for example, we were, like everybody else, we were initially selling to other SaaS companies.

Then we started talking to a bunch of service companies and realized that they actually just talk about the problem differently, but they have the same problem and resolve it. So, it’s really about volume. Like there’s nothing that beats volume, like I don’t know, sounds like a non-answer. But the hustle you have, the planning that you do to like bump into your users to the way you build a network within a community is extremely key. And I think this is where a London is just a fantastic place to start a company. You get so many people passing through, you get so many people here, people are very well connected to one another. You go down a shortage, you bump into 1000s and 1000s of people like nowadays what I do sometimes it shows we’ve got a we work and talk to people very easy. Most you can just see people have Salesforce open and we’re like, hey, you’ve probably worked in sales. And so it’s just about that volume is about that kind of you need to drive to say I want to understand this better, even though I think I know it.

Matthew Todd 

But that deliberate networking and that drive to want to keep pursuing that kind of search for insights and knowledge about the audience, even after you’ve got a lot of those already, I think is so important. Because I think a lot of founders can, you know, maybe because of constraints and pressures, but can do a bit of that, and then switched to completely product-focused solution focused. And the thing is, okay, I know enough about the problem now. I’m now going into Build Mode, I’ve ticked that box. I’m now going into Build Mode going into iterate mode. Now, how do I get more customers?

But actually, they’ve they stopped talking to customers, because they haven’t, you know, kept pursuing though, those insights in the way that you’ve described. So I think, yeah, for a lot of founders, just making sure you balance the product side with, you know, speaking to customers gathering new insights, I think is so important that can genuinely transform the direction that you, you choose to take the product.

Rudy Lai 

I think to add to that, if you can’t have the first one or the second, the volume gives you the chance to think deeply about the problem. But what I also see is sometimes the volume cripples you. Because you get so much volume, you then to your point, Matthew, very, very accurately, people lose focus, and people lose the sense of participation. But the real purpose of volume is for you to build a mental model of how the world works.

So I have a very clear idea of, if I am a salesperson or a marketer, and I got air dropped into one of these b2b situations, what would happen? I’m constantly trying to break my model, right? I’m trying to constant trying to find new conversations, like yourself included, right, I’ll probably ask you, Hey, you know, how do you get people on your podcast? How do you get people for some of your other ventures? And try to break my model of like, oh, agile, haven’t considered this angle of go to market? But yeah, the whole idea for volume is for you to think deeply about a unified model of how your domain works, right? And it’s only then when you can come up with like an elegant, scalable solution to the problem.

Otherwise, all you have is like it’s a very noisy space that you’re scared about. Because now you have the opposite problem. It’s not that you don’t know the market is you know too much about the market. Yeah, there’s seemingly unending detail for you to solve.

Matthew Todd 

Yeah, absolutely. I think you’re right about that mental model. And, you know, I talk about kind of castleview definition and positioning all the time. And I think that aligns with form a mental model, you know, your perspective, your worldview of not just how your solution works, but you know, your worldview of the people that you serve, and the problems they have, and then how your product, your solution fits into that worldview, then I think you’re, you’re bringing your customers into that same worldview.

Obviously, it’s, you know, it’s got to align, it’s got to resonate with them. But it’s, as you say, it’s using that volume of information to create a well-informed perspective on the way that that part of the world works. Absolutely can rephrase it better myself. So fantastic. Then, you know, where things are at the moment? What’s next for you? What are the focuses? What are the priorities?

Rudy Lai 

In 2022, we spend a lot of time trying to cross the gap from founder led sales to sales, lead sales. And what that really kind of forced us to get very good at is positioning messaging, and go to market execution. Yep. So in the next 12 months, what we really want to do is prove there ourselves that we have nailed these three things.

So a messaging. Working with my team, teammates, Isabel, Adam and Hayley. We’ve spent a huge amount of time iterating on messaging as a product itself, almost where we talk to maybe five, six customers a week. And we try to see where the messaging breaks where people have questions, where people are like, oh, yeah, this sounds like what we already have, like we’re not interested, and how can you kind of very succinctly cut through the noise. And a lot of it is really just like saying things or putting forward a perspective and then hearing what comes back and then using those same words the next meeting. So solving that messaging is very key.

The second thing is positioning. Right. So for the longest time, like it’s difficult to have us fit in to our The market view of how a sales stack operates, right? Because people can’t see what they haven’t seen. So if your categories are I need a CRM, I need someone to like contact customers with, I need some sort of analytics tool. And I need some sort of database, then, like, those are the four categories you pick. And that will be like, hey, you know which four of these are a Tactic. And then we had to kind of educate a customer and say, like, okay, so you have these four. Now, go look at the average workday of your sales and marketing teams, and tell me how many how much time they spend on customer work and how much time they spend on data work.

Tactic automates that data work, so that you can do more customer work. So we replace things like spreadsheets, we replace things like Google, we replace things like asking a data analyst to pull a report. And these are workflows that exist in our customers landscape that nobody has a label for. Right? Yeah. So the next step for us is to really like label this problem and started category creation.

But right now, we spent maybe a year just to kind of get to the point where we can have a very kind of repeatable conversation. And we can say, tell me about manual data work in your organization, and tell me how you can really not have data as a hindrance, but as a competitive advantage to your organization.

So people then start saying, oh, yeah, okay, if I really have to push my data to the max, I need data scientists, I need heads of data, I need analysts. I need like, culture change, I need like a platform to help you kind of track all these things. And we’re like, awesome. If you buy a Tactic, you solve all of these problems in one go. And so like, kind of nailing that positioning, was what we did last year, and like, this year is really proving like, did we do homework, right? Like, is this gonna work? And then lastly, is about go to market execution, right? Like, how many? How much marketing activity do we need to do to generate revenue? And it’s a lot of marketing activity at the moment. So it’s really around like, Well, how do we use Tactic to automate as much of the go to market so we hit those activity goals without sacrificing quality? How do we get to consistent activity in terms of motivation? Is there a reward in terms of team structure in terms of training, in terms of playbooks in terms of technology?

How do we like tie all of these things, to generate the right activity to activity with the right quality, so the marketing activity generates the revenue we want. And then the corollary is that you generate the market activity and you get to test your messaging, and your positioning. So this this year is really about like, we’re starting to see it accelerate. And it’s really about like, holding that execution bar high. And watch it accelerate and reap the fruits of 2022.

Matthew Todd 

I love what you said about the approach that you take clearly, well thought out clearly data driven, but approaching it in the absolutely the right way I can, you know, ask any client that we work with to go about that any better, because that’s absolutely the right approach chatting in the right way.  So I say best of luck, not that I’m sure you’ll need it. But thank you for, for sharing some of that and for sharing the insights as well in the conversation today. There’s a lot of founders in our audience will get a lot of value out of this. We’ll leave links to Tactic in the notes for anyone interested in taking a look and finding out more as well. But just to wrap up, is there anything you’d like to leave our audience with today?

Rudy Lai

Nothing beats being obsessed with the problem that the customer is trying to solve. If you nail that, then you know to start up.

Rudy Lai 

I think to sum it up in our journey so far in Tactic, nothing beats being obsessed with the problem that the customer is trying to solve. If you nail that, then you know to start up.

Matthew Todd 

Perfect. I think that’s a great way to end the podcast. So really, thank you very much. Appreciate your time today.

Rudy Lai 

Thank you, Matt.

Matthew Todd 

Thank you for joining me on this episode of Inside the ScaleUp. Remember for the show notes and in depth resources from today’s guest. You can find these on the website You can also leave feedback on today’s episode, as well as suggest guests and companies you’d like to hear from. Thank you for listening.

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