In this episode, we talk to digital identity company founder Mohamed Fagiri and learn how to strategically find opportunity in a global marketplace. We also learn how to approach a new venture with family and responsibilities and some of the personal challenges and decision-making process involved.
Episode Links
Connect with Mohamed on LinkedIn
Episode Transcript
Matthew Todd
Hi. My name is Matthew Todd and welcome to Inside the ScaleUp. This is the podcast for founders executives in tech, looking to make an impact and learn from their peers in the tech business, we lift the lid on tech businesses interview leaders and following their journey from startup to scale up and beyond covering everything from developing product market fit, funding and fundraising models to value proposition structure and growth marketing. We learn from their journey so that you can understand how they really work, the failures, the successes, the lessons along the way, so that you can take their learnings and apply them within your own startup or scale up and join the ever growing list of high growth UK SaaS businesses.
Hi, and welcome back to the podcast here really pleased to be joined by Mohamed Fagiri, founder and CEO of uqudo. How great to have you here.
Mohamed Fagir
The pleasure is mine. Hi, Matt. How’s it going?
Matthew Todd
Ah really good. Thank you. And yeah, looking forward to the conversation today. I think it’ll bring a different perspective as I hit with all our guests, but I think this will bring a different perspective to scaling companies looking for markets and and challenges of being a founder. But I’d like to kick things off as I always do by the guests kind of introducing themselves introducing the company and giving a little bit of their elevator pitch. So over to you.
Mohamed Fagiri
Thanks again, I look forward to exciting discussions today. So my name is Mohamed Fagiri, British-Sudanese. But born in Liverpool so worked very hard on my scouse accent, I call myself a nomad. Lived in a number of countries. And, and I think that shaped my personality in a way. Started my career in the UK, did some time in in Europe and then moved into the Middle East where I stopped I moved to the Middle East with an American, one of the American tech companies as a consultant. And then shortly after that, decided to jump in into the startup world have actually started the business started kudu back in as we started first as a consultancy back in 2013, and pivoted in 2020 to have what is uqudo today, a product in the identity space.
Like I just quickly, what is uqudo, uqudo is digital identity company, we do digital onboarding, ID verification, how we can enable our customers who are usually banks, government agencies, telecom, telecommunication, and others, to have a friction less user experience when you are requesting a service from, from your bank or from your telco. And now we’re all doing it digitally how we can do that without a friction, how we can able to verify the person, the document the biometric, and all of that. And although we are a UK based company, but we focus in Middle East and Africa.
Matthew Todd
I see I think, yeah, we could to get into that a bit more detail as we, as we talked today. But I guess for that just to whine back a little bit, you said you started off as a consultancy, but then has pivoted into the platform that it now is, you know, what, what was that the what were the motivations and reasons for that, that pivot and change of direction.
Mohamed Fagiri
So, you know, life sometimes present opportunities. And you’re either being ignorant to some facts and or just something that, again, an opportunity presents itself and you will tell yourself, if I’m not going to do this now, I will regret it for the rest of my life. And this is exactly what happened for me, actually, the company I used to work for they wanted to pull out of the region. And we’ve been working very hard building a pipeline and a very strong pipeline. And I said to myself, I will regret it for the rest of my life if I didn’t pursue this avenue.
And that was the start. And this is where we went into every customer that my company said no to I said, Look, if I come in and do this with you, would you consider me deliver this project which I’ve been talking to you for a very long time. Some of them said thank you, but no, thank you. Others said tell you what we trust you. Why don’t you come and do it? And that was the start and this is why we started as the consultancy at the beginning.
So it’s not your typical founder story or how you actually start a startup. So at that time, we couldn’t say it was a startup. It was literally a small consultancy, doing project. And we’ve been through all of the consultancy challenges. And we’ve learned, we’ve learned notthat Consultants is not the right route, at least for us at the time, because you’ll go through this feminine phase where you’re always looking for the next opportunity. And when you’re delivering, you’re not doing business development. So all of the challenges that I’m sure all of the listeners knows about.
Matthew Todd
No, absolutely. So in terms of then developing the the platform, was that something that your consulting customers were looking for was searching forward? Did you have people kind of waiting for this platform? Or did you have to go out and try and create that demand from from scratch?
Mohamed Fagiri
We actually, we had the moment where we might 2% of our revenue was coming from one customer and we were working with a working in a government project and that Government Code Project was consuming the organization. And the question was, what is next are we going to continue, we we knew that going into consultancy, is sorry, we knew that there are some challenges that we discussed few things together as, as a team, because by that time, we build a considerable team at once we reached around 10 to 12 people working at the company at the time. And we also came into an auto pilot mode where we did have time after few years, going live and going through the first few years where the major changes occurred. And now it’s literally a maintenance phase, what to do next. And we were lucky that we did have the time. And we were actually talking to number of organizations.
And at the time, this is was 2019 where it was during the the ICO where everyone, every company was doing their own ICO and looking into blockchain and what the blockchain technology will bring in. And truly identity is a is a good use case for. For for fourth trust for building a trust in when trust is not there. Just without getting into very technical there. We we thought to build a decentralized identity and build some identity to build wallets where the wallet can verify you have your verifiable credentials that enable you to onboard into into different platforms or open a bank account by scanning a QR code.
Everyone thought we were crazy at the time. And when we were trying to pitch this to investors to companies and show look, we are addressing a trade true problem that you have today. And that was late 2018, early 2019. Everyone thought we’re crazy at the time. And to show how the project will work, we start to build kind of a digital onboarding.
And everyone starts to like that. And one of the some of the fintechs that we and one of the banks said, Actually, we like what you did with the digital onboarding. Can you productize that? Can we work with you on that? And that was the first thought. And this is where we said, Yeah, let’s, let’s go for that. Let’s make it as a start.
Now 2022 everyone is talking about decentralized, decentralization in the identity space. And I think if people are following what the European Commission is doing, they’re really going full throttle on this.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, interesting about that kind of spotting of opportunity. And yeah, by putting yourself out there, you kind of have to pay attention to the feedback that you’re getting. And the products that you you might end up working on may not be the one that that first came to mind.
Mohamed Fagiri
And, and also, sometimes you might be way too early. I think this is sometimes we as founders, or as intrapreneurs. We might find a product or service find the problem that we’re trying to solve. But it’s not only finding the problem, but also finding the right time. Too early is not too early is a challenge as too late is a challenge as well, right?
Matthew Todd
Yeah.
Mohamed Fagiri
You have to get the timing right. You have to.
Matthew Todd
Yeah. So one thing I want to talk about that you kind of mentioned as well as the different markets, that you’re, you’re serving a new sort of kind of a small, UK company with quite a wide reach your what are the markets that you’re selling into?
Mohamed Fagiri
Yeah, so I spent majority of my time now in Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates, and we, we are focusing Middle East and Africa. And what we are finding is, first of all there is it is an underserved and understood markets. And this actually, when we, when we looked at the problem, although the problem does also exist in the UK, it also exists in, in Europe, but we decided to go through the, the, I will just say the difficult route or but go through a problem that we were facing here in the region, and thought why don’t we start with with the country that we spent some time and we know the we know the infrastructure, we know what’s available and what’s not unless there’s our technology, and this is what we did in, in in the UAE. And we thought let’s start from a underserved market. And from here, we grow into the rest of the, of the GCC or the Gulf countries, like Saudi Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, to the region here. And from here, actually, this year, we are in 2022, moving aggressively into the African market.
So we just started serving countries like the sub Saharan countries like Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, and we’re moving into few others. And what we are finding in this market, we are either a small player that play in that in those in, in those countries, for example, we sometimes we partner with them, sometimes we engage with them. And we, we, when we partner with them, or when we already bring in our own technology, we try to serve because if you look at a lot of our customers, and this is also coming from customer demand, a lot of our customers they they want to grow.
Like for example, we are using a country, like for example, Middle East, you will find a lot of countries starting with UAE because it’s easier to set up a company, but the population in Saudi, in, in Pakistan, in Turkey, for example, in Egypt, and they want to grow to this market. So we provide them with one platform that helped them to grow into this market. In Africa, you will find companies that, for example, started in Nigeria, and they will want to expand outside of Nigeria, which usually comes to Ghana, Kenya, Tanzania, and then you will find the FRAC foreign countries, which is sort of talking about Senegal, Morocco, Sierra Leone and the rest. So it’s it’s an interesting market, interesting places to visit. So yeah, what is it about those markets to kind of means there are underserved you know, there are obviously a lot of other players in the identity, space, what was it that how were you able to serve them in a way that made that kind of market more accessible.
One of the decisions that we made earlier and that, that also differentiate us from the international players who are usually either us or European based, the problem we’re trying to solve here is different. And the way to address it is also different. If I’m in the UK, just getting your your name even not even your first name, I need your initial surname, date of birth and postcode. I can be able to verify right and if I can get a credit your credit history, I will know which will your bank with who your utility bill with so there is a lot of there is to identify who you are. It goes through a complete different different kinds of process. Imagine you are in you’re in Nigeria, in a country that the banking the banks, they created their own IDs ID biometric system, because they didn’t trust the national ID system.
So for example, there is the national, the national IDs, the bank, the bank ID, which you have to provide your biometric to the to like to a Banking Association unit, that without, without it, you’re not going to be able to open a bank account. Because the national, the National ID housing has an actually provided enough capability or the the ability to get the singularity of a person which people with different identities open different.
So you will find that these countries have different problems. And you have to address the problem differently. When there are half a billion with a B, people without an ID, without a national ID, they’re not registered, they are what you can call a gray in the gray market, or they are not contributing directly into the economy because they cannot have a bank account. So I cannot come in and say, I’m going to scan an ID, I’m gonna get the biometric. And I’m gonna then do do the screening slash anti money laundering slash KYC, it does not work. Right? It’s a complete, you have to think about the different how to look at different credit, check how you can do the credit check differently, how you look at different address verification, right? Or, and also how you can look at alternative biometric verification or identity verification, and integrate that with what works in a country.
Another another thing that if you look at if you’re coming from Europe, you have one, one regulation, right? With the European Commission, and with the UK to regulators, you’re covering 90, even more than 90% of the population, just by by having two legal entities one in the UK, one in any European, any country is part of the European Union.
Come to dollar region, you have 70 plus countries, 54 countries in Africa, and a few in the depends which countries you talk when you say Middle East, but then the total is 70 plus, so And each of these countries has got its own regulation. And then there’s data sovereignty, data privacy, how you can fit your solution to be able to address some of these markets, and try to build it in a way from the ground up to be able to support the countries that you’re gonna grow too. So yeah, it’s a it’s a different mindset that you have to adapt.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, so you’ve got to keep it you know, something in the core that is common, but at the same time, make it adapt to those very different markets and requirements.
Mohamed Fagiri
Yeah, I don’t think you can say COVID had any benefits, but it’s actually accelerated. It accelerated the reach the it accelerated some of the long waited digital transformation or people, people reconsidering, especially working with the regulators working with the also the organizations that have been very either stubborn or living in the past that they now they truly no, that they either have to adapt, or they’re going to die. So that also opened a lot of possibilities and reopen the negotiations and reopen the discussion with a lot of these organizations. Now they’re more open, they’re willing, they’re forthcoming, try to really be part of this phenomenon.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, no, we’re certainly seeing a lot of that and hear that from a lot of companies as well that yeah, digital transformation has has definitely been accelerated over the last couple of years because of the necessity of that. One thing I’m kind of curious about is going into those different countries then with the different requirements and regulations and regulatory bodies, as well. How do you scale that approach? How do you tackle approaching each new market and make sure that you’re not spread too thin and make sure that you really understand the domain as well as the companies you need to work with partner with sell to?
Mohamed Fagiri
Yeah, it’s one I would say one step at a time. It took us over a year for over a year we just focus in one country and and we actually tested and, and also strengthen our proposition in the market and we’re very in our growth we are, first of all, we work with partners, we, we there are partners who are selling our technology in some of these markets, we don’t go direct. And we, each of these countries, we do have a, or in some in some regions, we have a player who have been there for a while, who has a business there that believe in our technology, and giving us the insight as well and have the relationship we cannot be in 70 countries. And we’re not going to be in 70 countries.
And also, if you look at the Africa, as a continent, take a country like Nigeria, 50% of the 50% of the sub Saharan population lives in one country in Nigeria, 160 million people in. And again, it’s the number one economy in between, between Nigeria and South Africa, this like what no one was, one of them is number one, what rather is number two. These two countries, if you start with, like working with the system working, you have to be very selective in the geometries that you work with.
And if you don’t always go to the largest country and to try to try to focus on sometimes you might go sideways before you go to some of these major economies. For example, we’re doing this without getting too much details in a smaller African country that we are working with, with the banks, we’re working with the telcos. And I’ve literally just dropped from a call with a telco in that country, where we are looking to support them, and working with them. And also, again, test and scale our solution.
So that enable us to go into into these other markets. But when we go there, we have we have a local knowledge, we have a local understanding, because I do remember a few years back, I’ve actually was with the we were in, in a large bank, in West Africa, and we’re doing a demonstration. And I remember the CEO abruptly stopped the presentation. And he said, Mohammed, if you are here, to show me how you’re doing identity in the UAE, I’m not interested, you’re you’re showing where 99.99% of the population, they have an ID verified and their identity has been verified. And everyone has got a passport.
Here 50% of my population, they don’t have a legit ID that I can work with. So and this was one of the first time that it actually hit us. Or although we we it wasn’t the situation. But again, that was a very strong message that when it came, it also gave us that. Also, the we’re all I always have that meeting in the back of my mind. And when I’m doing business in a place, do not assume go in with understand your market needs and the market fit before you go into and do it one step at a time. And then of course working with partners, yeah.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You’ve really got to know that local market. And I think, you know, partnerships, obviously are a good way to get an in depth local knowledge, but also, as you say they have pre existing relationships already in those those markets that you’re trying to target. Yeah, I guess one kind of follow up question from that, then is how do you go about selecting and almost filtering those partners to make you how do you qualify the partners to make sure that they are worth investing the time in?
Mohamed Fagiri
It’s it’s an interesting question. And the reason I’m saying this, because we, you have to first of all, there’s a lot of, there, especially in our region, there is a lot of people or organization that makes big claims. it’s it’s very, it’s well known in some places I don’t want to generalize but people always make a claim. Look, I can. Everyone is a friend, often the president or the friend of the prime minister of know someone and this is not the way that we’re looking into it. We will look at an organization that either in the technology space providing solutions to or providing solutions to the financial services to the telco in the in the region.
And also, if you look at the status quo of the organizations within the within the region and the whole Middle East and Africa, you will see that there are some dominant players as, as fintechs. We are in more than one country. And there are banks that there is one bank, for example, in 35 countries, there are telcos who are spread again, I think, in 17 countries.
So, it’s important to when you start also thinking of who is a partner, the partner, as a lot of our partners that we work with our technology providers, but also an organization can become a partner because you can grow with them into markets. So for example, here, as I mentioned earlier, some of our customers from, from the UAE, for example, they want to grow to Saudi to Egypt, to other places, we provide them with that one stop shop solution that mwe go into. And once we are in the country, and we start to provide the service in that country, then it becomes an easier to now we are in the ground. Now we start to analyze the market who is there who is doing what, and you start to assess, and be in a much better position to identify who can be your partner, you have to be very selective, but it comes from trial and error. And we we did have some, some unpleasant experiences, but the majority have been really good.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, you know, I think that’s, you know, it’s really interesting to hear that, that kind of strategy of looking for those, as you said, under underserved markets, where there’s need, and as a UK company, not not making assumptions about where your market should be, you know, simply based on on your location, as well, I think, you know, especially these days, you know, any business can be, can be global. And I think it’s about doing that right analysis, you know, truly understanding your customer base and that problem domain to work out where you can have that impact.
Mohamed Fagiri
If we want to do things differently, we need to get the people who thinks differently, we need to get people who don’t think like us.
Mohamed Fagiri
Yep. And, and just talking about business being global as well. I do believe in, in having the diversity. And we have a very, have a very diverse team. We now we are touching 14 employees, and we have people from over 15 different nationalities within within the team. And also we have people from school leavers all the way to PhD holders. And we have senior management to who don’t have a degree we that bring in, and I think I founders should really look for that diversity in first of all medication from experience, it brings a lot and it bring the thinking outside of the box, and for all of us who are trying to, to put our dent in the world we are looking for. If we want to do things differently, we need to get the people who thinks differently, we need to get people who don’t think like us don’t get don’t employ someone who has who can who thinks like you who of course he has to have the same. The same, let’s say ethos or the same. You should both you should we should both have the same. What’s the word I’m looking for?
Matthew Todd
Values?
Mohamed Fagiri
Values, thank you, the value should be the same. But bring the people who are really different from you and again, within people that you will you’re not afraid to learn from and people who or who will challenge you. And I think it’s very, very lucky that although, although as although I’m a single founder, but when we when we look at uqudo as a company, it does not have a feel of a single founder because we have a very strong C-suite team. All of them they have been founders or co founders in their previous career. We we are running we are running the company as even with a decision have is made is like, with a very strong management team, that change because I always was it always has been the back of my mind the challenges around being a single founder and a company reliant on one person.
So although I’ve been in the in the look for a very long time for a co founder, but for one reason or another, it didn’t happen. And one of the advices, I would have to, it’s, it’s always it’s truly makes a lot of sense, I wouldn’t recommend a single founder, if you if there’s a single founder listening, it’s always good to find the right co founder. And if you couldn’t find the right goal for don’t find a co founder for the sake of getting a co founder, just be be a single founder, it can happen and build the team that they are they feel they are part of the company, it’s their company as well. And I’m so grateful to the C level within a kudu to the our senior management. And they are and they are tweeting it and it is their company as well. As as it is mine. So yeah.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, I think it’s really important to get that early team right. And I think it can be so hard to do. But I like what you said about, it’s important to have shared values, but with that, bring in diversity, people that will challenge you people that think differently come from different backgrounds will bring different perspectives and build a really strong, early team. Absolutely.
Mohamed Fagiri
I look what I look what look outside of your typical the way that we’re looking for people. Right? There’s always especially now with the open with the with the world we’re living in, and people working from home and, and remotely. Other than we are from different nationalities we so as an office, we we have an office in Dubai, before COVID, we had we had an office in Thailand as well, we had the legal entity in Thailand. Because we were thinking to move to move our development hub to Thailand. But Corona was inwasn’t easy, or actually the country was on lockdown for over two years. So that cause, that caused some challenges for us to recruit people, and to get people to move to move into Thailand.
But today, we have people in five different countries who work in the company. So again, it’s also had to look wide and beyond your normal recruitment or hubs that there is we are there are some interesting places who would like even the way that we were looked into Thailand. Again, it’s not unknown. It doesn’t have to be in the Poland or Portugal or Yeah, where it was Ukraine before. But there are other places. And there is some amazing talent in this place is untapped talent as well. And we’re also looking into Africa. And we are heavily looking into scouting talent from Africa, we haven’t been very much successful. We have few amazing people. But for company like us who’s got the vision to grow into the continent, we should look further and harder for talent from the continent.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, I think yes, it is interesting, especially as you say before kind of accelerated just the last couple of years. But I think people are realizing that they can and should source talent from many different places. We can all work in a remote and distributed way in. And you shouldn’t be restricted by your geography in order to find the right people, for your team. But I think it also poses an interesting challenge if you suddenly change from a radius that you can draw on a piece of paper on a map or something on Google Maps to all of a sudden it’s the whole world you know, how do you even start sourcing the right people? It creates a new challenge, I think.
Mohamed Fagiri
Exactly, absolutely. And also for us, for us there was also another if you think about it, because historically before COVID it was also looked at these some of these religions or you can get cheap talent or but now and again again, this is this is against something really good that is now it depends on your skill set. It does not depends on to an extent there’s absolutely there’s still, there’s still some these places like that will demand a way much higher salary. But the good, the good part is there is no that really for a very skilled for a very skilled personnel. With a technique, especially technical personnel being, it doesn’t matter where you are, you can demand or you can ask for the salary that you truly deserve, no matter where you are. It wasn’t the case before it, it was your location will demand how much what’s the what’s the ceiling? For how much you can get? We’re seeing this slowly changing, at least from the what used to be or if you can call it the bottom of the of the salaries that definitely has started to move for the right skill set for people really skilled and have got the right. The right technical abilities and capabilities.
Matthew Todd
Yes, yeah, I think it’s certainly going to be interesting to see. See where that goes. But I think yeah, just create opportunity for a lot of people, as you say, to charge what they are worth and a kind of a global worth based on their their talent.
Mohamed Fagiri
Which is a really, it’s a positive thing happening now, which hopefully people and again, it’s all part of reducing the need to migrate, right?
Matthew Todd
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. One thing I wanted to kind of go back on something you you were talking about, you know, building a team, but you’re also talking about being that solo founder. And also, you know, founding it only a few years ago, I’d be interested in kind of what some of the challenges were from, you know, starting off with a stable job or or consultancy income, and then deciding to switch tracks on and pivot how, you know, how was that kind of personally being a solo founder.
Mohamed Fagiri
I have a quick, quick story. So I was, I was a highly paid consultant, I want to say highly paid that a lot of companies try to not not, we were the company I was working for we were we were well paid as and well look after, well looked after it as well. So when other like big consultancy firms and blue chip companies, they tried to approach us, they couldn’t even match what we were getting. So we will really, as they say, living the life when came to Dubai and having the big salary driving the the sports car and all of that. And suddenly, you turned overnight and say I tell you what, I’m going to I’m going to pursue this dream. And I wasn’t young. When I started the business. I was 39 as well. I had the family. And I had two kids at the time. Yeah. So and they were at school and school for people who know our region here. It’s very, very expensive.
So it it wasn’t easy. And the first challenge is the family and how the family we used to go on a on a yearly holiday. I used to travel a lot. I used to upgrade the family into Business Class B, not being business class, but again, nice holidays. And I and I remember my, my daughter when I was driving her to school, and she said to me, daddy, she was still at primary school. And I think she was the year four or five and she said dad used to be loaded. What happened? We didn’t go on a holiday and so on. And, and to be one thing that I did at the time, I was just getting to listening to podcasts. So in a way podcasts was also like kind of a way to show the kids how, like, I remember Ira Glass and here’s how you build this. I used to put the how how you build this early in the morning in the way to school, and the kids will listen to it and say wow, so I said also and yeah, and then again my daughter Caitlin said so like you’re going to become a billionaire.
I said not everyone but it just show you sometimes you have to follow your dream. So again it we were having our is having that discussion with the kids in their way to school, and I will deliberately will stop the podcast, we’ll finish it on the way back when I pick them up, or next morning. So we started to get the kids to understand things has changed thing has changed for a very long goal. So from early age, they started to understand, okay, there is the short goals, that things that we can do. But we can do things that can take time. And also it’s worth it worth it to take a risk, a calculated risk, and then we start going, we start talking about, okay, why do you do this? Why did why did I do it, so I start in their blessed minds, to try to try to, to sell it to them or to bring them on board. And again, I think something extremely, extremely important is your second half of it’s not an easy journey. And it is a very, it’s a very winded, there is very winded. And as I’m sure the majority of the listeners who got their own businesses already tried the startup and also, you’re away from home, you don’t have that network of support. You, you cannot even, you have you have to pay your rent, you have to you have to you have to pay the school fee, you have if you have to have health insurance. So your expenditure is not you can there is there’s there’s no strong support network as you will have it back home. So the question is, without a very strong support from your other half. And I would always like people that either spoken to our advice, or I know they’re taking this route, the question is, how your other half will take it will they be able to are you know them best, you know, you live with them, you know their character, you know what they can handle what they can’t, it’s a very emotional, it’s a very it’s very hard on the partner sometimes as it’s hard on you.
And I will say I’m extremely, extremely lucky. And I think without my without my wife, I wouldn’t be able to do what I’m doing today because all of the support all of the standing by the long nights. And she was also an she was not only that, but she became heavily involved in the business. Like she helped with HR Finance, you had the chair the finance background, she’ll she helped with a lot of the administrative tasks within the company, shall it helped me to focus as well on, on growing the business and focus on the business not to have to worry about the day to day tasks. So although it was very, like the bookkeeping, finance, HR Hrn, but you can think of this, like secondary, but having the right person who is taking that load from you, it helps you to go forward with your vision with the mission that you’re trying to achieve. So I think as a single founder or someone who started late in life with the family, and with the, with the growing family, with, it’s and someone who was getting into his 40s I think there is a lot of things to consider.
But also in the other hand, you can think of it as a there is no age, there’s no time for you to start. It’s it’s never too late. I think it’s interesting how you were involved in the children with the podcasts and, and kind of doing a couple of things near like explaining to them why things have changed and what you’re trying to do and let them see that kind of context of other people, you know, following a similar kind of vision and path, but I think also giving them an education as to you know, there are different ways to make a living to work to try and build something to create things to have an impact. And I think you know, certainly in terms of my experience of education and many many people that I know that’s something that was never ever on the curriculum never taught at all and and only now really, you know, people get through online resources through podcasts and places like that. Yeah, and one of them really get hooked. It’s actually for for my son, it’s an excuse for him to keep his phone at night next him because that I’m listening to a podcast, I can’t sleep without listening to something.
Matthew Todd
Yeah. Yeah, no, awesome. No thank you, yea I think it’s really interesting to hear both, you know, from the professional side, the business side, and you know how you’ve been able to take things to different markets, but as well as that personal side, I think it’s, it’s really good for people to hear that you can start something you know, not not every startup has to be founded by someone in the 20s. Right, you can create something and actually a lot of that experience, you know, you can carry forward into that startup, whatever it looks like. And yes, even with responsibilities, you can still make something work. I think a lot of people can feel a little bit stuck, like, Oh, I didn’t get around to trying this. But I think, you know, people should experiment and do it in a careful way you do it in a strategic in a planned way. But I think it’s still try and execute.
Mohamed Fagiri
No, definitely, of course, we’re not saying just drop everything and go for it now comes with its own challenges. And it’s not for everyone. And again, the circumstances is different. And whether you call it sometimes luck, whether they call it opportunity, whether you call it the star alignment, whether you call it fate, or whatever you you think it is, or you believe in it, but when I look back into the journey, there are small things that happened in that journey that actually had a big impact on even whether we consider whether this journey would have been a successful or not, for example, I do remember before, not a lot of people know this, but when we are in that few after a little bit after after we started. And I think when we’re still doing the consultancy, and it wasn’t, it wasn’t going very well. And when it was really down down, I said, tell you what this is, this is not happening. And I’m going to go back and get the job. And I’ve actually did an interview for one of the large technology companies, one of the big blue chip companies, and the interview really went went very well. And I had, I had an interview with the CTO, like the, the regional CTO for the role, and we didn’t get along at all.
It’s like, we did not get along. And I knew it like even half of the we didn’t even like finish that interview it was there’s a lot of things that we didn’t agree on. And like from a personality perspective. And me, both of us came out that look, we’re not, we’re not going to, we’re not going to be able to work together or do anything together at all. And that was like, that was one of the lowest moments I said, okay, and put a lot of effort. And even now, we’re not gonna get this but straight after next day. And without exaggeration, next day, I had a call from my previous boss and said, Muhammad, remember this opportunity that we’ve been working on, we were looking for, we’re looking for a small team to come and support us, and work with us in this national ID program. And this is where we went in. And we, we work on this project and build the company on the back of that project and enable us to, to actually build the team that we who we are today and also the growth that we’re having today. And enable us to build a company from one person from myself and a part time and have a friend who was helping me part time to 1215. So we’re going to add 10 to 12 at once they grew or 15 but we’re always average between 10 and 12. To today we are touching 40 and hopefully with what we’re having on the pipeline and we’re going into a big race by the end of the year to to hopefully grow the even the business more and more and become a to b to become a first full contender in, in this space in the region, and if I had that,if I had that job, if I had that job opportunity, things would have changed dramatically, right? And there are other things that I can’t think of that had similar impact. So we do what we can do, but then we do not control all of the outcomes for for our actions or lack of actions, right?
Matthew Todd
Yeah, absolutely. You can only control what you can control. But I think having that vision, having that mission and passion for it, I think it it changes how you perceive things, even in ways you might not realize, you know, your, your spot opportunities that otherwise you might have just passed, and it might not be something as obvious as turning something down or accepting something. But it’s knowing, you know, pursuing the right kinds of conversations with people. And I think if you have that sense of purpose, then you you find that it can grow. And as I say, you kind of end up subconsciously, I think you’re spotting these opportunities and pursuing interesting conversations and seeing where it might lead.
Mohamed Fagiri
Yeah. And to be honest, when I again, when I started, because I was in a good salary, I did have some savings I did have support for for few years. And one of the things that to cut costs, for example, when I started the business, like, for example, again, I sat with my wife and said, Look what can we do, and then we discussed this, and we said, look, we’re gonna go for a two years as if you, they’re gonna go back to the UK, rather than staying here in Dubai stay in the UK for two years, I will try to make this happen and is going to be and we agree that is only going to be for two years, we do not want the family to be apart, even two years is too long. But let’s say a maximum of two years. And this is where I said Okay, with this setup, I should be able to with the minimum expenditure, right? Be able to, with the mean expenditure will be able to focus and not worry about a big cheque coming at the end at the end of the month, for example, or, because sometimes here, rent it paid quarterly or even sometimes yearly. So you have to have like a big fat check that is not like every month that you can, you don’t always plan your life on a monthly basis. Yeah, your expenditure month, sometimes you have, like hard hitting months that you have to be careful. And for someone who’s starting a business, you cannot just suddenly say, like, for example, for a lot of families here, September is it can be up to 30%, if not anything between 25 to 40% of your expenditure. Outgoing expenses can happen in one month, where you have to pay either a quarter or half of your rent plus the school fee, the first check of the school fee. And few other add, like for example, your car insurance that you have to pay once a year. So suddenly, you’ll see that you have a month that it just so imagine where you cannot control your monthly expenditures. Okay, this is my budget, you have to have a really strong backing. So this is where we said, look, let’s, for us to continue. And if we want to see this dream, why don’t we have this sacrifice? So again, this is some of the things that you will have to do as a as an entrepreneur or within, like, the hard decisions that you would you would have to make, right? Yeah. And yeah, and we stick to the two years. So we’re again, extremely lucky. We stick to the two years within the two years, family, we’re back and we re things were starting to pick up in the business. And this is where we started as well moving into productize productizing our proposition and launching our solution as well.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, no, I think that’s a great achievement. But I think it’s a I think the perspective that you had is interesting as well giving yourself that kind of constraint that window to make it work. I think it’s certainly Yeah, I can see how it did give that. That focus.
Mohamed Fagiri
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. It’s again, you have to look at the, the situation you have to look at the, and this again goes back when you’re going for that decision. And you have to go for the worst case scenario. And again, look at all of the quantitative and qualitative aspects of that of that decision that you’re that you’re making. And but, again, I would say, don’t make it a side project, if possible. It depends, of course, different industries, whatever you’re doing, it might have an impact. But if you’re really not focusing, and giving it the shot that it deserves, again, with having, having your calculated going for a calculated risk, but I don’t believe it can be done as a side hustle. I’m not sure what’s your view on that. But you have to do, you have to focus on what you’re trying to do, and make it your make or break.
And this helps you do so. But also, if you try to fail, as sometimes if you fail, fail fast, if you’re going to or go, put all of the effort, try to test what you have to test and see how the market is reacted, but you cannot take and also because the markets are going to wait for you that as we said earlier, it’s all about the right timing. You cannot be too early cannot be too late.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, no, I agree. I think I see a lot of people try and do something as a side hustle. It’s, it’s almost part of the story. They like to tell themselves and other people that, oh, I’ve got this thing on the site. And it’s almost like, like, with the podcasts, right? You know, it’s like, Oh, I couldn’t be a billionaire kind of thing, because I’ve got the side hustle. And like, well, they, they have it as a side hustle, they can never fail, because they’re, you know, they’re perpetually on the path of that. But it is not until they they commit and focus where they really find out whether that is a viable proposition and a business.
And I think there’s a lot of people, even people that do, do it full time that are always still not 100% committed to it enjoying the struggle a little bit too much rather than seeking to truly kind of know their market, explore their markets and the ways that you’ve described certainly.
Mohamed Fagiri
Yeah. And I think it’s a good point to brought in there because it is as well a mindset. And I would say, if you think that you’re going to do it, but yourself a goal, make that goal for example, a, give yourself a target, whether it is a personal target, for example, or a sports you want you want to make an achievement. Are you able, for example, to wake up every morning at six o’clock to do this job? For example? Yeah, are you in that mindset that you’re telling yourself, I’m doing this up for this, and I’m gonna do everything it takes, because you’re gonna have some really low moments, some really and, and a lot of these low moments you are by yourself, the and it can be very lonely even when they are sometimes when there are people around you. So are you do you have the mental strength in a way to handle this? And I think people should if stalkers, if anyone wants to do this, give yourself a target, give, give yourself a hard to achieve, but an achievable target and go for it.
See, how you can how you will. How you will come – first of all, are you going to be able to commit Are you going to be able to work towards the target? What what are you telling yourself while you are in that, in that journey? When you are if you are on a 300 kilometre or miles cycling trip and you’re in 150 and you’re just looking at the same road that you’ve been driving for few hours. Are you gonna turn back? Are you going to do this you’re going to come in and you’re going to do it the day after? And the day after? You’re not going to do of course I found it every day. But are you going to have that target that you’re going to go every single day are you going to continue doing it and because there’s no turning back, you cannot stop in the middle right you have but also you need to know when it is it does is not is the time to quit. Again, that’s extremely important as well. But don’t quit too early as well as, and but also, don’t keep it till it’s way too late. You should read the signals. And again, it’s although you can argue with it, whether these signals are always the right to follow or not because as as I mentioned earlier, I had the signal that I will just I said, Tell you what, this is not going to happen. Yeah. But then things change to the better after that. So that’s again, something that what is when to stop or one or when not to? I think that’s, again, a very hard thing to determine or to know.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, I think it can be. But I think the the message I would certainly give people is if you’re thinking about those things, and making a decision, you know, either way, then don’t be afraid to go out and seek information that you might not want to hear. So seek out feedback from the critics seek out detailed feedback from your market. And you know, if you’re scared that the market might be telling you something that you don’t want to hear, it’s always better to hear it sooner. Because that gives you time and opportunity to react to it, it might not be that you have to throw everything away, it might just be that you’ve got to adapt things a little bit. You’ve got to tweak your messaging, you’ve got to tweak the proposition a little bit. But whatever you do, don’t seek out people, as we said before that or think the same way you do and don’t seek out people that are always going to agree with everything you say be be open and be honest with that feedback internally and externally as well.
Mohamed Fagiri
Yeah, I think there’s two, thanks for bringing that up. There’s two very important points there. The first is you have to have the support network around you and advisory board and the people that they tell you the truth. And they tell you as it is, it’s not they tell you what you want to do what you want, what do you want to hear?
Matthew Todd
Yeah.
Mohamed Fagiri
And I think this is extremely important as well, to have these people around you, and to reach those people, those advisors. And I think that’s, again, a very important point. But also touching on what you were saying earlier, there is as well, that sometimes is when to pivot, and how to pivot and not to stick to the original idea. I can think of very, very few companies that start started with something and end up do and end up with the their successful product. Yeah, majority of the cases will look something completely, completely different.
And you have always to see what the market is telling you what your customers are telling you. But also, what is your vision and what you’re trying to achieve. And make the why.
And, and from there, make up your mind and make that make that right decision. Right.
Matthew Todd
Yeah. No, 100%. Yeah.
Mohamed Fagiri
Mohamed Fagiri
Slack, the slack started as a gaming company. Right. They were building games. Yeah. And they had they had a communication tool, right? Yes, they get the gig. They’re actually literally I think if I’m, if I’m not mistaken, there. They were going to run out of money. And they actually when they went to the investor said look with what we would what what is left, rather than giving that back to investors, if you allow us, we have this tool that we’re using internally, I hope I’m not butchering their story. But it ended up the tool that everyone is using today. Yeah, and a lot of there’s a lot of stories that we can think of, but slack. One is, look how that pivot went from having a game and and ending up with the tool that everyone is using today. Yeah, absolutely. I don’t think you can predict how your products will be. So therefore, you shouldn’t be overly attached to the current incarnation of your product and think, or everyone must want this exactly how it is now, because you can’t predict the changing market conditions. You can’t predict the feedback that you’ll get you the main thing that you should be as open to that feedback open to change our babies. It’s our babies, right? Yes. Yeah, it can be very hard. Yeah. Because you can become attached to it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it’s no no, it’s it is yeah, it’s, you do have an attachment to your product to what you’re building to the problem statement that you did what you you’re doing your you’re doing what you’re doing, and you wake up every morning trying to solve. And suddenly it shifts.
Matthew Todd
Yeah, I think it really just comes back to kind of what we’ve been talking about and what we started off talking about as the approach to different markets. It’s just, you know, have that vision, do the work to truly understand in detail, you know, the problem domain, but also how the different markets operates. And yeah, I think you kind of discussed, you know, explained it very well that, you know, the importance of doing that, and the importance of doing that, you know, with an open mind as well. Yeah, no, definitely. No, thank you. I think this is, yeah, a good place to leave this conversation. For now. I think there’s a lot a lot I’d like people to listen to and take away from this.
You know, I look forward to a future conversation, as I’m sure we’ll have and hear how things have been developing what other markets you’ve expanded to, and how that how that journey continues. But thank you for for taking the time to share, share this conversation, I think it’s really, really been an interesting conversation from my perspective. And I think the audience should take a lot away from this as well.
Mohamed Fagiri
No, thank you, I really appreciate it, thank you for giving us giving me the opportunity to talk to you today. And I really look forward to have a follow up and yeah, thanks. much appreciate it. And look forward to hear from you again, or you have to continue this. Much appreciated.
Matthew Todd
Likewise. And I think, you know, encourage people to leave comments as well and, and encourage people to, to kind of do what we’ve been talking about and let us know what what is their vision? What are the things that they are committing to what are their targets? I’d love to hear that in the in the comments on the podcast as well. But no, thank you again for taking the time and, and we’ll speak soon.
Mohamed Fagiri
Thank you much appreciate it.
Matthew Todd
Thank you for joining me on this episode of Inside the ScaleUp. Remember for the show notes and in depth resources from today’s guest. You can find these on the website insidethescaleup.com. You can also leave feedback on today’s episode, as well as suggest guests and companies you’d like to hear from. Thank you for listening.